The New Hanoian

No answers for you, but wanted to commend you on your efforts to do your bit for the environment. Hope others will follow your example and walk or use a more environmentally friendly vehicle.

I agree with you but who lend Westerners those Minsks? Vietnamese people do it, tangoLA.

Minsk

I appreciate what you deeply think inside. You can stop ridding Minsk, you can tell your friends not to do it but can you tell Vietnamese to stop lending them?

Respect

Yes, sometimes foreigners here in Vietnam don't respect local people enough. I think Vietnamese people respect foreigners (especially Westerners) more than they respect their own relatives sometimes. How sad, but it's the truth. Vietnamese have to respect themselves first before expecting foreigners do it.

Some Vietnamese people (have to emphasise *some*) here think that blond hair, big nose, blue eyes people have more money than black hair, brown eyes people. You can see it happens in any restaurants, bars...

An Australian ironically told me years ago (not remember exactly what he said): "I can't believe Western tourists have to pay more for the same service or stuff. Even Japanese or Chinese, all Asian tourists don't have to do it sometimes. Because they don't have big noses or blue eyes? Well, maybe that's why we're respected more..."

What's wrong with you Vizero???? If no westerners hire Minsks, who can the VNese lend them to?!

And the point is, to stop pollute your own country whoever the rider is! What kind of VNese you are to say smt like you did???

Well, what tangoLA did is right and you guys should tell all your friends to stop riding old, polluted bikes (not just Minsks), sometime ppl just dont really what they're doing is bad.

Nothing's wrong with me.
I'm the kind of Vietnamese know that Minsks had been here before western tourists came.
And the point is, to stop pollute my own country is to ban all motor bikes on the streets, not just Minsks. Have you ever seen the smoke from buses here in Hanoi? It's much more polluted than Minsks.
These lines above just for you, QUYDA (not related to the good things tangoLA wrote)

And if you don't know, QUYDA: if there's no tourist hires Minsks, they will use them to carry pigs, vegetable... like they've been doing.
Doesn't everybody know how harmful smoking is? So why they still smoke a lot.
I don't see the world through a pinkish smoke.

Instead of banning all bikes you could just ban Minsks (or old rusty bikes) Dont you know (or think) that banning all bikes is extreme???
Think, Virezo!

What the next best thing to travel around, apart from bikes?
I'm VNese so I know buses here, but if you think about how many bikes we can save by getting a bus, you wouldnt say so.

I dont think you get TangoLA's idea! The Point is, why would a Ta^y save his country's environment and go pollute others, (our country - VN)?
And obviously, the point is not about "What would VNese ppl do if Tay decided to stop polluting VNese air by not riding Minsks anymore"
Think, Virezo!

OK, everybody know how harmful smoking is, but they still smoke a lot???
Because it's their life. So as long as they respect others and not smoke in public spaces it should be OK!

But, polluted bikes are just wrong, they pollute the very same air that everyone breath, they affect others life, OK?
Need me explain more?

The thing is the Vietnamese don't care about the environment at all...I think one bus spits out alot more black fumes than 50 minsk's.

Then again it is everyone's planet and I would like to see people driving electric bikes...after all its everyones planet

Dear Minskers,

It's nice to see that Hippo is not afraid to make sweeping cultural generalisations in our discussions of what, "Vietnamese don't care about". Please tell us more of your cultural learnings of Vietnam for make benefit of glorious nation of Wherever. What is this giant, homogeneous group really like? I'm sure everyone's fascinated.

As to the interesting Minsk question - I do think it is a good one. The 'mule of the mountains' seems to have gained an unearned cult cache with gullible westerners in Vietnam recently. I see quiet a few of them around town these times - all driven by confused people who seem to think they've stumbled upon the poor mans' iconic equivalent to the Mustang, VW or Vespa. They seem to feel they are channeling Steve McQueen in 'The Great Escape'. They are wrong. tangoLA is right it is an inefficient tractor of a bike; awkward to drive, terribly polluting, noisy and downright primitive.

Its only positives are that it does suit the larger person and if you break down in the mountains it is built incredibly simply. If you can't fix it you shouldn't have any problem finding someone who can - possibly with a daub of buffalo dung (this will also be an aesthetic improvement).

These things have no business in the city especially being driven by people who are environmentally aware. Just because Soviet paraphernalia is trendy doesn't mean that we should be suckered into riding these monstrosities. Buy a hammer and sickle T-shirt if you must but if you want a city bike a Wave is fine. Even in the mountains a more modern trial bike will probably serve you better. This is a case of anti-style over substance. Don't be fooled - I can say without an ounce of hyperbole they're the work of the devil himself.
Pax,

Candide

hippo, I dont know if my logic is right but let's put it this way.
Let's say a Minsks burns 5L/100Km
So 50 Minsks burn 250L/100KM
How many litters would a bus burn for 100Km?

And if you put 50 Minsks on the road, they would take much more space than a bus.

Comrades! Before we all get stuck into the humble and well-meaning minsk, and each other, let me just point a few things out to the folks at home:

1. The amount of smoke that comes out of a minsk is due to the oil content in the petrol, some of which is required, as the minsk is a 2-stroke engine. Now what many minsk drivers in the city don't realise is that the normal percentage of 4 per cent oil is not required for your standard city driving, and in fact many minsk drivers put far too much oil in in any case, resulting in the plumes of smoke you see. I use about half that or less in the city and my smoke is next to non-existent and pretty much comparable to your normal wave, and better if the wave in question is using shitty petrol or is not maintained well, as many are. Using less oil will NOT hurt your engine if you are doing short legs around the city and will certainly help those around you in traffic. When you go out of the city for bike trips or long drives, you do have to increase the percentage back to around 4 percent. I have used this method for four years without any issues.

2. The minsk factory is not making the bikes you see around town anymore (which are all old models anyway), in fact they now have some super sexy models out there that would put even steve mcqueen to shame (check this out: http://www.minskparts.com/MINSKMOTO%20CATALOGUE%202008.pdf), most of which are 4-stroke by the way, meaning no oil in the petrol. Furthermore, the VN gov put a 40 per cent tax on them in favour of the more expensive hondas, meaning that very few if any more minsks will be roaring into this country anytime soon. All the minsks you see being driven in Vietnam will continue to be driven in Vietnam by SOMEONE until they rust into a pile of red dust and flutter up to the big motorbike heaven in the sky. Whether that someone is an oversized Tay wearing raybans and listening to 'Born to be wild' or a poor Vina farmer needing to transport two buffalo carcasses up the Don Van Pass really is beside the point, as even if i drove my minsk off Mount Fanzipan to try and get rid of it, some kid with a few coke cans and some tape would have it up running in a jiffy.

I am not advocating minsk madness and everyone getting one, but nor am i advocating introducing an unworkable ban into this country that will seriously affect the poorest members of Vietnamese society (think the recent ban on street venders - similar ill-conceived thinking). i am just saying that while its not the most enviro friendly vehicle around, there are steps you can take to minimise the emissions and, im not sure maybe some enviro dude can help me out here, but i would have thought the carbon footprint left by throwing the minsks away (which will then be used by someone else in this country, who may not have been able to afford it prior to the guilt laden westerner's offering) and buying/renting a new honda is larger than simply continuing to use the minsk with the proper oil percentages.

Keep in mind too that minsks last a hell of a lot longer than your honda-style bikes (which like ipods are made to self destruct after a certain period so you buy a new one), so there is the issue of the carbon footprint of actually producing the millions of wave-like bikes, which are bought new every year as enviable fashion items by some Vietnamese (and some westerners...) who want the latest model to cruise around Hoan Kiem on.

I arrived in Vietnam as a volunteer with absolutely no money and was able to buy my minsk in instalments over a five-month period from a nice trusting local. In that time, it has served me amazingly well and we regularly sit atop mountains and affirm the loving bond between man and machine.

If the devil is in my minsk, then perhaps all that Iron Maiden I listened to back in the 80's has finally paid off and My Lord Satan has provided me with a sturdy Horse of the Apocalypse to wreak havoc upon you mere god-fearing, wave-riding mortals. However, if god forbid, the devil wears prada and rides an older model piaggio (two-stroke), Vespa (two-stroke), any diesel powered engine in the third world or puts shitty petrol in his wave (or does not properly maintain it), then we're gunna have a truly spectacular monster bike showdown between angels and devils as the End of Days draws near...and ill put my money on the Belarusian farmbike put put put-ing its way past Peter at the gates...perhaps seeking a spark plug.

Exhibit G for the defence: For your reference, the following are all sayings related to the devil, none of which mention minsks:

"Speak of the Devil and he appears" (needs no further explanation)
"The devil is in the detail" (as in, I think SE Asia has much much bigger pollution problems than those relating to minsks...eg World Bank funding of a new 'dirty' coal powered power station in VN while decrying global warming - devilish one might say)
"Satan is neither omnipotent nor free to do everything he pleases. Prince of the world he may be, but the Prince of Peace has come and dealt him a death blow." (as in, even if the devil did want to ride a minsk, he wouldnt have anywhere convenient to put his tail, which would get burnt horribly on the exhaust pipe. However, the Vespas, Piaggios and Waves are a different story...plenty of room up front there)
"The devil's most devilish when respectable." (see comment above related to other more fashionable bikes)
"The devil has the power to assume a pleasing shape." (therefore minsks are certainly out of the question).

Мир!
SoViet

Agree with SoViet, there are much bigger worrys in VN, infact SE Asia as a whole, than a few muppets on Minsks who don't know how to get the fuel ratio right.

Traffic is a pollutant factor, but its the most visable, and easiest to point fingers at. I just spent the last 30 mins checking a dozen websites on this, just to be sure.

I work in that Devilish industry that is mentioned above, and if any of you are eco-mad, friendly, you'd pass out with what i've seen, this is not restricted to Vietnam, all developing countries go through this, and most developed countries went through this also, they just seem to forget that these days.

Btw: Also not a fan of iam a trendy minsk owner, for the record.

We should all be riding llamas. They can be fed on scraps, they are clean, their faeces make good manure (and also doesn't smell much), can be trained to spit at your mortal enemies, produce fine wool, are agile enough for the Hanoi traffic and yet most adept at climbing mountains, the perfect clean city/country means of transport, and when they eventually break down you can eat them.
Just need to convince them to let us ride them amongst a few other negligible factors.

Dear Minskovites,

With respect to SoViet, who obviously knows much more about the Minsk than I do, I’m wondering if his comments apply to the majority of Boolay around Hanoi who look like they’re on their way to have their hair highlighted or toes painted rather than worrying about the correct ratio oil/petrol for their belching mule. I appreciate the serious mechano-empathy that can develop between man and machine and would not presume to ever suggest that such a profound bond be sundered. However, the Minsk devotees I have noticed do seem in the main a crew who have just jumped on a band wagon of something they believe will confer on them some brand of authentic cool just by asserting their power as consumers – rather like an ipod. It is surely a more a fashion statement than economic imperative or genuine example auto eroticism in most of these cases.

I don’t think anyone really believes that the humble Minsk is Vietnam’s main environmental issue or that we as expats can even have an appreciable effect on the situation even if we all moved into a yurt tomorrow. Separating the sewage from the drinking water for instance is a much more pressing issue. However I do understand tangoLA’s sense of unease. But perhaps those of us from Australia or the U.S. whose governments are doing such a fine job of preaching to developing countries on the environment should try not to embarrass poor Messer’s Rudd and Bush with wanton carbon foot-stomping the minute we’re out from under the beady gaze of the EPA. The problem seems to be a ‘when in Rome’ mentality that allows us to just abdicate our usual standards of acceptable behavior as though we’re all just waiting for the chance to hoik our garbage into the nearest when there’s no chance of recrimination. It’s a bit of a Ring of Gyges problem isn’t it? When there’s no risk of punishment – why be good? Are we all just wolves in sheep’s clothing waiting for our chance to sink our fangs (or exhaust pipes) in?

To return to the biblical theme for a possible solution perhaps we could melt them down and turn our Minsks into ploughshares. On the other hand a few of my friends have Bonus motorbikes (made by Sym I think) that they're happy with. They're a decent size and a bit less offensive as a city bike.
Pax,

Candide

Dear Longan,

Tragically, you may have a point. If the Hanoi trendoids get the idea it's hip they could easily be convinced to commandeer a llama, buffalo or even one of those crazy tractors they drive in the country that look like the offspring of an unholy coupling between a tuk tuk and a bobcat. Be careful what you wish for.

Pax,

Candide

Ah, perfect! This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to stoke - between Vietnamese and foreigners, Minsk and non-Minsk riders.

To clarify: as Candide correctly observed, no one, including me, thinks that putting the few Minsks in Hanoi to rest would make any dent on local environmental conditions or Hanoian life spans. As Candide eloquently notes, it's this queazy feeling that perhaps we unconsciously take advantage of laxer environmental regulations here, at precisely the same moment that our home countries preach about solidarity in rescuing the environment. And I worried also that Hanoians viewed us foreigners as being hypocritical, at least with respect to Minsks. That was the sense I got from my Vietnamese friend. I hoped that other people on this website would chime in so I could get a sense of whether my views were correct or misinformed.

Thanks, SoViet, for pointing out the optimal fuel/oil ratio for in-city Minsk riding. Regarding your broader arguments about carbon footprints, etc., I take your point. It would be nice if someone had some statistics on hand about such matters to enlighten us; but perhaps this is wishful thinking?

Another thought occurs to me: in what other respects, if any, do Vietnamese find us foreigners to be hypocritical? Go ahead and take some jabs at us; it's healthy to learn some humility once in a while...

Dear tangoLA,

Thanks for your kind words. I think you're doing a fine job as a gadfly with these questions. Even though I’m a Tay myself, here's one obvious form of hypocrisy I have seen many times that makes me cringe worse than watching my mum show off her "disco dancing" at family weddings.

There are westerners, even some colleagues of mine who I know are earning up to a thousand dollars a week, who I have seen fight almost to the death with some exhausted looking xe-om with the arse hanging out of his trousers over 5000VND. It’s like a scene from one of these animal snuff movies they never tire of on the Discovery Channel – ‘When Animals go Psycho’. Even the female of this species can be deadly when aroused into a killing frenzy. They wield their hard and deadly Pro-tec, evolved into a type of killing set of bolas, circling the weak and limping xe-om with implacable purpose sniffing the air for the slightest opportunity. Suddenly eyes bulging and screaming like a Billingsgate fishwife they pounce in an ecstasy of economizing and finally subdue their prey and trot off grinning broadly over their kill – in this case a cool 30 cents. It is a brutal transaction but this is the law of the jungle.

Before everyone jumps on this, I know, I know – no one likes being ripped off and I’ve been left red faced myself plenty of times. What gets me is the way this person comes up to me after such a display and boasts that, “nobody rips me off” as though they’ve just nailed some corporate raider trying to plunder their pension fund. I see the stunned faces of the locals who witness such displays and I have to say I feel pretty small. Perhaps this is a version of the ‘road rage’ epidemic that they’re suffering from at home that we’re importing. I suppose it’s about a sense of proportion really – let the punishment fit the crime. Thoughts? Am I alone in this?

Pax,

Candide

Re the emissions factor and western double standards, dirt bikes (the REALLY loud, smokey and annoying two-stroke ones) are completely legal (in Australia anyway) and have pissed me off no end on many a bushwalk and beach excursion. I believe jet skis are also two stroke (and much more polluting to the water), as are quite a few lawnmowers, all chainsaws, whippersnippers and many other Peter and Mary appliances around your average western home. Not exactly sure on whether dirt bikes are restricted to out of town use or people in oz just decide not to use them in the city for fear of being mobbed (they're REALLY REALLY loud, high-pitched rattlers - like a minsk on speed), but i have seen two-stroke bikes on Australia's streets many a time, but then again we're a pretty backward country where plenty of people thinking our huge ozone hole will just suck up all our pollution into space, no worries mate.

In the interests of unabashedly making grand assumptions and great leaps of logic to support my argument, I will propose that the number of people riding dirt bikes and other two-stroke machines (quads, jet skis, snowmobiles etc) in western countries is THE SAME or MORE than the percentage of westerners riding minsks in Hanoi - HENCE there is NO, and NEVER has been ANY hypocrisy in riding a minsk in Hanoi...never ever ever...truly ruly...dead set...chac chan mot cham phun cham.

Just one further point for Candide in light of her raising the interesting point of auto-eroticism and minsks - a wonderful combination of words that sent sweet tingling chills up my spine as I read it - more than one female minsker with a misty look in their eyes have coyly admitted under the influence of far too much ruou that the minsk's loud and boisterous internal combustion processes have another, more ethereal, sensual and one might say gratifying bi-product for women other than the carbon particles rising up from the exhaust pipe like the cremated remains of unfulfilled desires...

In the interests of decorum and preventing a stampede on minsks (another infamous thread has already addressed the issue after all...) let just say that its not how many strokes you have, but its how you combust them that counts...

Мир!
SoViet

Got to agree with SoViet who speaks alot of sense.

TangoLA though I want to avoid generalisations I wouldn't be surprised if it was the uncoolness of the Minsk that your friend was shaking her head about at least as much as the emmissions

Candide I hear what you're saying but when you live in a country it sucks to be treated so differently to locals especially regarding prices. I can understand squabbling over 5,000 when it's clear you're paying more because you're a foreigner.

Dear SoViet,

That's the best I've ever heard and it answers a hellvua lot of questions quite elegantly. They say in drama that there are only two real forms of motivation, money and sex. My bet is on your theory.

It seems that there is no sensible resolution to be had in this debate really as the hypocrisy, as pointed out by SoViet, is ubiquitous and cherry picking infuriating examples is probably a waste of time. As natinnam said other examples are legion and we have reaped the benefits of them for century. The truth of the matter is that we in Europe and the U.S. have been living off the historical accident of differential rates of development since Cortez first sneezed on his first Aztec. We’ve had ever so many excellent reasons for doing so. ‘The white man’s burden’ to civilize, bringing big-daddy God to the heathens (still going strong here in Vietnam that one) and just out and out old school rape and pillage. The British Museum really is lovely.

Should the fact that we come from a place with a much higher standard of living mean none of us can ever have pristine conscience living here in Vietnam? Possibly not - I guess it's a private matter. It’s hard to feel great about the fact that you’ve not just kept up with the Joneses but have lapped them twice and are watching many of them live in abject poverty. Maybe it's a sign of humanity to have such feelings and ask awkward questions. They say that only psychopaths have perfectly clear consciences.

donnelr3, I take your point but isn’t that why most of us are here, to be treated differently? I think most of us would be a bit shocked to be treated like an authentic local without the safety net of an embassy to fall back on. It’s not just foreigners that get cheated here either, as any Vietnamese person will tell you. Con men are perfectly non-discriminating but it’s just that sadly we often make easier marks.
Pax,

Candide

Hi Candide,

Yes, you raise an excellent point about bargaining with locals. My behavior has evolved to a point where I engage in some token bargaining, and then goodnaturedly pay a higher price than what locals pay. I feel this is one of those issues that has no fixed moral bearing - you can take the attitude that one should be treated on an equal basis with locals, or that one should pay what is commensurate with one's own salary. I think what determines your attitude is the degree to which you empathize with others. I guess from your commentary that you empathize highly with the locals around you, and kudos to you for that. The world would be a gentler place with more people like you around.

That being said, Hanoi is a dog-eat-dog kind of city, and there are plenty of people willing to take advantage of the weak. In the evening, when I tug out my wallet and leaf through my grubby dong, reflecting soberly on my day's transactions and all the money that was nickel and dimed out of me, the phrase, "A fool and his money are soon parted" often flits through my head...

A Hanoian friend once commented to me that Hanoians don't work well in groups, because they are an envious lot, and would rather hinder a group's progress out of spite, than let another person's talents be recognized. It's not just Hanoians who are like this... it's the Jones too. There's something sad and parochial about the human condition that gives us miserly delight in having either equality, or better yet, a clear advantage over our neighbours...

Hi tangoLA,

I agree, Hanoi is a tough city in a way and suckers probably deserve to be gouged a bit, there’s something bracingly Darwinian about it. I’m certainly no angel myself though. It is hard not to sound sanctimonious in this kind of format. I’m new to this mode of rant so it’s tricky to find the correct range. But certainly, I’ve haggled away with the best of them and hate being left with the feeling of having been diddled – like you I’ve become inured to paying a bit over the odds, a kind of Boolay tax as they say in Indonesia. Foreigners get gypped everywhere – just look at those Japanese tourists staggering around Darling Harbour under the weight of their crappy, balsa-wood boomerangs and swish Croc Dundee hats.

I think a lot of people have probably developed a system similar to yours. I agree there is no neat ethical formula to tell us how much we should be prepared allow ourselves to be finessed by locals. It is, as you say, a matter of empathy and also, I think, of taste, experience and good manners. It’s one thing to haggle and another to go nuts over sums of money you’d be too embarrassed to drop in a tip jar in Melbourne in case a waiter told you to shove it. I don’t quite buy the, “it’s a matter of principle,” line. Why is it suddenly a matter of principle here when the person who is trying to charge you a bit extra really needs the money badly and not at home when we’re not bothering to pick up our silver off a bar? One or two acquaintances of mine seem to relish the chance to get into these tiffs. I’ve seen one Aussie girl exit a taxi via the window, screaming abuse at the driver over 30000VND – sure she was in the right but at the same time that’s not even flag fall in a taxi at home. She was full of righteous indignation after but I had to ask myself would she have done this on Chapel St. over a buck eighty?

The xe-om scene I’ve recounted above is one that makes me cringe not because I think people should meekly be suckered but because within the level of disproportion and I suspect a sadistic if not slightly erotic pleasure being had in socking it to someone who is weaker than you. Could it be a bit of, ‘I’m going to make this miserable little guy suffer for all the accumulated frustrations of living in Hanoi.’ If so perhaps a chill pill is in order and a little bit of perspective. I know that this is a small minority we’re talking about but I think they can make us all look a little shabby. It grinds my gears. God, all this frantic agreeing is making this sound like a presidential debate. I'm off down the pub.
Pax,

Candide

I hope you don't mind if I take this back to the Minsk discussion, I've been out of the country and as someone who owns two Minsks and has even earned a living from riding them, I can't help but throw in my two bobs' worth.

I've lost track of how many times a local or expat has told me off for riding a Minsk or complained about the pollution. I've always thought that if they were so concerned about urban air pollution, they should be catching the bus and not riding the latest trendy scooter model around town.

There are two main sides to this air pollution debate: localised air pollution from motor vehicle exhaust and the global impact of the life cycle of your vehicle. I was always taught that at least half of the emissions produced by a vehicle occur during production. So from a global perspective, we should be all riding old bikes and trying to reduce their local impact by running them as cleanly as possible. My Minsks have already fouled up the air in Belarus and wherever else in the Soviet Union that the iron was smelted, so I can't really justify burning even more coal in Vietnam just to produce a "cleaner" bike.

There are lots of ways to ride your Minsk in Hanoi traffic while trying to keep your emissions low. One is to run less oil in the mix when you're in town, and to use a good synthetic oil rather than that crap in the bucket. You should keep the bike well maintained, by regularly cleaning out the exhaust pipe and using clean sparkplugs. A lot of the blue smoke so hated by the locals is actually oil residue that's built up in the pipe and never burns off on those short runs around town. You should take your bike on a long blatt into the country every now and again, just to heat up the exhaust pipe and burn off the crud.

Another thing you can do is turn off your bike when you don't need the engine running, such as at the lights and in traffic jams. I've actually been told off about my exhaust smoke when I've been sitting in traffic... and my bike wasn't even running. On a good day, my Minsk's exhaust will be as clear as any other bike on the road.

It's great to see some basic awareness about air pollution amongst the Vietnamese, it's just a shame it's so superficial and is so often about pointing the finger at foreigners. I once asked someone who complained about my Minsk where they had been on their bike that day, and they'd said they'd been "di choi". I told them I'd ridden back from Son La that day, and asked why they hadn't taken the bus. But the locals see buses as polluting too despite the fact they move more people (see Virezo's comment above).

I'd love to see an effective public transport system in Hanoi but that will be decades away. Until then, motorbikes will be the main form of transport, and the difference between riding a well-maintained Minsk and a brand-new Dylan is largely aesthetic (in that you can see the smoke coming out of a Minsk). Their overall environmental impact is much the same.

BTW, the Minsk Club celebrated its 10th anniversary this year. Most of the people I know who ride Minsks have been riding the same bike around Hanoi for years and continue to do so despite the lack of parts and good mechanics and the rising price of fuel. Sure Candide, some of them probably get off on riding a Minsk but they're not recent bandwagoneers. And the club throws the best parties...

Great stuff Glennoi and SoViet!

Candide - I can't help but wonder if, had you seen me on the streets of Hanoi on my Minsk, you would assume me to be one of your gullible westerners lapping up this unearned cult cache you speak of.

While I am well aware of the number of foreigners who own all kinds of vehicles in Hanoi (oft used for little more than going to work and other short trips - be they to the press club or the bia hoi), I believe the majority of Minsk OWNERS to be well aware of the stink that surrounds the bike.

Before I make my point, here is a little back story:

I lived in Hanoi 6 years, during which I owned a 1991 model Minsk, an abandoned vehicle that I salvaged in 2001. In it's previous decade of use, the bike had had a long ownership pedigree, and in the time I owned it I met 4 of its previous foreigner owners. When I left, I gave the bike to a friend - a foreigner - and it is still, to my knowledge, being used.

As both SoViet and Glannoi say rightly: the bikes are best run lean on oil in the cities to reduce emissions AND as a consideration to other road users, and to be taken for long country runs to blow out the cobwebs. I did both of these things A: because I liked to and B: because what is good for the bike is also good for the people.

I served on the Minsk Club Committee. I took the time to understand the mechanics of the bike, learned the zen of maintenance and repair, and all the sundry skills from map reading to dealing with flood damage that any good motorcyclist knows. This extensive effort was put in voluntarily because I understood the responsibilities that came with owning this particular vehicle, and because I enjoyed the lifestyle that surroudned it.

Of course, should you spot me riding in the streets, you wouldn't be able to see any of this and it could be easy for you to assume I'm just off to get my nails painted.

If you take the time to ask, you'll likely find many Minsk riders have similar stories. For the most part, we are indeed aware of the noise and emission concerns - and we work toward addressing them.

Assuming Minsk riders are all the same is pointless. We have no more in common with each other than the bikes we ride.

And I am willing to bet, for the number of times that I have been accused, abused and tarred with the noise and emission brush because of other people's actions, that it pisses me off a damn sight more than it does you.

:D

i miss my minsk every day.

Personally I do not like minsks per say, but I don't think they pollute any more than the trendy old vespa's people ride. Even though I don't like these old smoky bikes I do appreciate seeing a variety of different stuff around the city...I mean millions of blue waves does get boring.

I don't know if I agree with paying more because I am foreigner though. I don't think my income should factor into the price negotiations and I do tend to keep going to the same place if I am not getting ripped-off. No I won't make a big fuss over 5000VND unless someone is trying to withhold my change or changing the price after it has been negotiated. Then I will make a fuss because I don't want people thinking I am an easy target (and foreigners in general).

a) glennoi, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the word 'blatt' entering into the annals of the New Hanoian

b) if other countries are any kind of predictor, in about 30 years Viet Nam will have a surge of regret for their previous rejection of anything 'old'

c) The Minsk is, by most measures, a shitty bike. That notwithstanding, it has character, and inspires in its owners a devotion unseen with the Wave and the Dream.

d) The Minsk is, actually, a great bike, a design classic. The design of the Minsk and its engine allegedly harks back to the first successful motorbike design, in the 1930's. After the Second World War, the Americans took the German rocket scientists (Werner Von Braun, et al), while the Soviets got the plan for what was to become the Minsk motorcycle, and the machine tools to make it.

So, in a way, Minsk, Belarus is the Cape Canaveral of the Soviet Union.


I'm done with my list, but I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to the people of Hanoi for having had too much oil in my gas for the past 10 days. My excuse is that my normal gas station charges more for their oil, and when I went to a different one and ordered the normal money value of oil I got 40% more than I wanted.

Believe me, I feel bad about the smoke I cause, but, like glennoi, I take the trouble to turn off my engine at traffic lights, and I let annoyed people pass me.


e) I love my motorcycle. It's different from the way I loved my 1972 Mercedes, and my 1984 BMW: this time it's personal. When was the last time you showed your bike a good time, got her some synthetic oil, or a good wash, took her out for the sheer pleasure of a ride?

Stochasticity & Estimation in the Calculation of Fuel Ratios

As Grubby just noted, each service (gas) station (heron refered to as 'servo') is not uniform in the quality and quantity of oil they provide. Like petrol, you order in currency not volume, and the price per unit volume of oil is generally not displayed. Some servos sell better oil and as such it costs more. Often (dare I say usually) the oil is not accurately measured, but poured into a large vessel for mixing with petrol making it very difficult to measure by eye and thus an often large random element enters the calculation of ratios. For both the individual and the society this is a negative sum game. Either we put too little and the engine destroys itself, or we put in too much and the smoke comes out on the thick side. Though certain elements of society may wish to see the former option, as owner of the bike and decision maker, I know I'm going to err on the side of the latter.
Admittedly this risk can be minimized by regular patronage of a particular purveyor of engine fuels, or even further by carrying one's own oil and measuring equipment, but it's not going to happen each and every time.

Better the Devil you Know?

As is clear from this thread, many Minsk owners are proud of their machines and do their very best to maintain them. I know I do. I turn off the engine when stopped, change the oil regularly, maintain the engine and ride conservatively to keep the revs low around town. If an interested band of caring people didn't own these bikes, doubtless someone else would. They're hardly going to simply vanish, and the point about replacing an old machine with a brand new one was already well made by Glennoi. If the penchant of 'tây' for soviet era machinery had never been sparked, most likely that someone else would be a poor farmer. I've seen farm bikes. They are not well maintained - the money just isn't there to get regular oil changes and new sparkplugs. More often than not they plume out actually dangerous black smoke, and with a buffalo on the back get the *#$% revved out of them. They are worked to their very cast iron bones each hour of the day.
Give thanks for the badwagon I say.

Dear Minskocrats,

Here I was imagining that Minsk riders were a tragic bunch of gullible spivs with more cash than sense who heedlessly choke the city with the smoke that billows from their Satanic mules like brimstone from the 7th circle of hell. How could I have been so wrong? Thanks to this forum I realise I was completely wrong. They are in fact an extremely civilized and evolved group of people who work tirelessly for a brighter future simply by riding this incredible bike. More than a bike really: a symbol of all that is good and right in the world. A beacon that, in dark times, we can rally behind with a sense of hope.

From now on I will always imagine Minskers, not as Mongol hordes or screeching Valkyries but more as a group of kindly, brilliant, lab-coated types pottering away in their make-do garages looking for novel ways to bend the laws of physics and chemistry to squeeze a single extra joule of combustion efficiency from their engines or at blackboards tinkering with intricate formulae to concoct the supreme oil/petrol ratio. I can just see them now, eyes puffy, in the wee hours, lovingly rubbing wax into a gleaming fuel tank or buffing a seat with saddle-soap crooning to themselves as they work. Everyone must acknowledge now that they are also clearly earnest environmentalists who, rather than thoughtlessly clogging the air, agonise over every molecule of pollution discharged by human agency. I can just see these tortured young people carrying their bruised consciences like so many injured kittens gathering in the corners of unfashionable bars to discuss nuggety environmental problems and lionize their trusty Russian bikes. Perhaps they even shyly perform poems on the theme the Minsk and the triumph it represents over aesthetics, functionality and common sense.

I was hopelessly uninformed about the level of technology involved in one of these wonder-bikes. I suppose I was put off by the horrendous exterior. But the true genius lies under the under the proverbial hood. Through some incredibly complex mechanical process these bikes (if I have understood the explanations above correctly and I believe I have) take carbon monoxide from the atmosphere and convert it into pure oxygen through a process much like photosynthesis – but better! By simply riding their Minsks around and for the meagre price of looking a bit silly they are selflessly increasing the air quality for everyone. Riding one of these Belarussian battlers is actually a social good on a par with researching a cure for cancer or rolling beached whales back into the sea.

[Cue portentous CNN promo voice] I envision a future when all people will see the beauty of the Minsk. The greatest bike gang the world has ever known will then be formed. At its head will ride Al Gore, David Suzuki, Captain Planet and Ralph Nader, the riders of the Anti-Apocalypse, and behind them, an army of right thinking dudes and dudettes with one burning desire – to clean up the our dirty planet from the saddle of their noble steeds and make the world safe for future generations of Minskateers. They alone will be able to guide humanity out of the medieval ignorance of our times into what can truly only be called – Nirvana.

Here is my Minsk poem, please accept it as a humble gift and an apology to anyone whose feelings have been hurt by harsh or hasty words above. Minsk Haiku:

Ugly, poo brown bike
Bear my sad bones away from-
Civ-il-is-ay-Shun

Pax,

Candide

Monsieur Candide

No-one can object to a well reasoned argument or objective discussion. Indeed your knack for loquacious, if occasionally prolix, discourse is most beguiling and I have enjoyed many of your piquant observations in times past. Nonetheless, if all you wish is to do condescendingly patronize, please take - it is unhelpful to anyone.

And remember - de gustibus non est disputandum

Apologies, it should read "..please take it elsewhere..."

Dear arctictis,

I couldn’t agree with you more – taste is nothing if not personal and to agree to disagree is a fine thing. If my little reductio ad absurdum offended what can I say except I disagree with what appears to me to be an overly effusive and one sided portrait of the Minsk rider as one more willing to spend time fiddling with motors and worrying about emissions than the average citizen. It is disingenuous. I don’t doubt that all the fans above can indeed clean and skin their own bikes at the drop of a hat. However outside the fan Club and people who enjoy tinkering and getting oil on their hands I have known more than a few Minsk owners who can barely find where the petrol goes in and do fit remarkably well the descriptions of the offensive splutterers anyone who has lived here longer than a few months will recognise. I can say they do not exist if it will please you but it won’t change the facts. The original question from tangoLA was about what everyone thought about this bike, it’s appropriateness in the city and alternatives - this is what I think. I would give the same advice to my best friend. Surely you would prefer to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it. Otherwise this discussion risks becoming another example of asinus asinum fricat - another agreement steeped presidential debate, how boring. If however this was a symposium for Minsk Club alumni and I simply wasn’t notified and am most embarrassed to have hit such a sour note and offer my sincere apologies.
Pax,

Candide

Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

These things are noisy and stink worse than any other bike on the road. That said, there are more pressing ethical issues to concern yourself with while spending time in Vietnam. CASE CLOSED.

Now can this fucking thread die already?

Obesa cantavit

Pax,

Candide

Lingua masturbatus.

Well, as the substantive comments seem to be dwindling and the ire seems to be rising, perhaps it is time to close out this mini-symposium, as HanoiAnon suggests. I'd like to thank everyone who took the trouble to answer my query. To summarize, I started off by pointing out that Vietnamese people may see Minsks as symbolic of hypocrisy on the part of Westerners - myself included among the latter. It turned out that the issue was much more complex than I suspected on surface appearance, with a diversity of opinion among both Vietnamese and Westerners. Several Minskites argued that proper maintenance of their cherished steeds would cause less environmental damage than replacing them, which is a point that I (and probably others) had never considered. Candide then raised the sensitive issue of a Minsk bandwagon effect, which perhaps predictably led to some testy exchange. I don't think anyone would disagree that in an ideal world we would all be riding bicycles and buses or walking around Hanoi, but it'll be decades before this city is as public transportation friendly as, say, Amsterdam or Osaka. In the meantime, I suppose we'll have to grapple with thorny issues of public good vs. private interest on a case by case basis, via grassroots forums like this.

Thanks again to all~

I find it funny that your Vietnamese friend was so concerned about what a westerner was driving, when she should be concerned about how Vietnamese DRIVE. I mean its like a war zone out there...how many people die a day just driving around here?? That seems more important than not understanding why people like one bike over another !?

We may have a "colonialist" attitude but at least we can follow the most basic driving laws, I am getting tired of seeing accidents all the time when going out...but I am sure that is some how the "colonialist" fault also

Hi Hippo,

Just to make sure that I haven't misrepresented my friend's argument, I think she and most of my other Vietnamese friends would gladly admit to numerous faults of the Vietnamese people, driving being one (a Vietnamese person once told me that traffic here could constitute a horror film for Westerners). Her point was not to declare that Westerners were somehow inferior to Vietnamese people in judgment or character; rather, solely with respect to Minsks, there seemed to be a moral discrepancy between the standards that Westerners applied at home and when in Vietnam. It's a perception that the Minskites on this site have rightly challenged and striven to address.

I wince a little when I think about my use of 'colonialist' - I merely meant to be provocative with that word, not insulting - but on the other hand, it was my honest attempt to characterize what I thought was the Vietnamese view on this topic. Again, I understand there are greater ethical issues in Hanoi and Vietnam; I just wanted to see what other people felt and could inform me about this admittedly minor topic.

Cheers

Dear Minsketariat,

I know - how about letting the dead lie down eh? Apologies also to tangoLA but I couldn’t resist one last piece of fun.

Don’t worry this isn’t to denigrate your bike I’ve been well and truly put in my place. No, I come this time in humility and to urgently warn you – that you have a viper in your midst, an imposter. Goode arctictis did come to me in a dream last night and although by day he professes to love all things Minsk I did hear him speak purest blasphemy. His words were as bubbling poison in my ears. In regards to the sacred bike he did use these wicked words,
“They are a dirty environmental abomination.”
What??? This couldn’t be the upstanding member of the community who gives daily thanks for his bandwagon. It must surely be some succubus of hell. And he did speak again, he did say the Minsk suffered from,
“Reliability problems.”
Painful to hear no doubt. And last of all and most upsetting they are,
“Really smoky. Fuel inefficient (shocking in the city but not too bad on the open road). Generally they need a bit of maintenance.”
Could this be true? Could these be the words of Goode arctictis I asked myself so I went directly to his profile and there to my amazement I saw those words as plain as day. How could a champion of all things good and true and not “superficial,” an avowed enemy of the heinous “anomaly” even if it be in the casual enquiry of a lonely girl say such things? It troubled me to my core. And the only answer I could find is that Goode arctictis TRUCKS WITH THE DEVIL!!! His words are weasel. I fear he may in the dead of night sneak off into the countryside and strip of all his clothes and… dare I say it… ride a Honda Wave in the moonlight. My words are straight - I am but God's finger. Beware my friends,
Pax,

Candide

My feelings are somewhat related to this post. . .

Am I the only one out there who is INSANELY TIRED of seeing minsks everywhere? I'm sick of backpackers puttering through the streets on their (to be blunt) piece of shit minsk hoping to ride to Saigon on their two week holiday.

I'm sick of MINSKS!! Blowing air darker than the exhaust of the public buses - Un-fashionably attempting to weave through Hanoi traffic - And just uglying up the streets in general. I'M SICK OF MINSKS!

Does anyone else find them as offensive as I do?

If a foreigner rides a Minsk, it should be obligatary
to wear a neon vest with Tw*t clearly visible on both the front and rear.

They are offensive !!

"Beer"

Or if they buy a "Gayblade"....without the cred to ride it.

"Beer"

Still trying to come up with a sensible answer here - WTF is it with foreigners and Minsks? Why do tays dig these shitty, old, unreliable, under-engineered Soviet piles of crap? When I was at home, I bought a Nissan, not a Lada. The reason why this was the case should be obvious. Now I'm here, I've bought a Honda, not a Minsk. For the same damn reason.

The only plausible reason I can come up with as to why so many tays buy Minsks is that there are a lot of foreign masochists living here.

TangoLa's second to last post sums it up nicely, imho.

Further, there is something to be said for the durability of those old Russian products. The Minsks just wont die. They can be made, one way or another to roll on indefinitely. And, they are so cheap, that you really don't have to care about whether or not they get scratched, dented, bashed or stolen.

A backpacker coming to Vietnam and hoping to take the "Top Gear" Saigon ride does not need some precious, expensive bike that he has to worry about damaging or losing every kilometer of the way.

Another example of these durable Russian products come in the form of cameras. I have a 50 year old Russian 35mm camera that takes pictures that none of my other cameras will take---because I'm willing to take this ugly but functional beast to places I would be afraid to take my Nikon to. The floods a few years ago come to mind. If I were going to shoot battle photos in Bangkok this week, this is the camera I would take, because I could run away and fall down, and drop it from a truck and I know it would still work. Bullets would bounce off of it.

And if I did somehow manage to destroy it or lose it--I could buy an identical one for $40. They made millions and millions of them and they are all still working, somewhere.

I can use it to bang nails into wood and it will still work. It does everything an old Leica will do--but is less refined. A Leica will drive nails too--but it will set you back $1500 to replace it if you lose it.

The backpacker's goal is to buy the bike for $250 and sell it for $250 when he's done with it. The Minsk neither gains nor loses value. This is the perfect ride for somebody who needs a bike temporarily at virtually no cost. The alternative, a plastic Honda, is going to have something break that will cost real money to fix, may not make it to Saigon, and may lose value on the trip.

I believe that is the appeal. From a financial point of view, Minsks are a store of value. A Honda is a depreciating asset. For the backpacker on a budget, this is an important consideration.

For people who live here, well, the Minsk is quite often just a fashion statement, much like wearing a "Che" T-shirt. They should learn how to mix the oil right.

There is a certain charm to a vehicle (or a tool like a camera) that gets you where you want to go and does what you want it to do that nobody will steal, is difficult to destroy, and holds its modest value through your entire course of ownership.

This is/was a great thread and is an interesting counterpoint to the "Who drives a Hummer" thread.

You can't win on ANH. Somebody will call you a jerk if you drive an expensive vehicle and call you a jerk if you drive a cheap one.

Viva la mediocrity of the mass of "average" consumers. Beige midsized Japanese cars and Honda Waves for everyone! No exceptions for wealth or poverty or practicality!

As has been noted, and re-noted above, the Minsk is not particularly well-suited to city riding, but as long as I drive courteously - in particular, I've gotten into the habit of turning off the engine for any red light longer than 20 seconds - Hanoians seem to not care in the least what I drive, how much it pollutes, or how loud/ugly/dirty it is.

I fancy myself a rather polite young man, but I nonetheless occasionally notice looks of disapproval in my direction when I make silly foreigner mistakes, etc. This is to say, I know what a Hanoian dirty look looks like, so I can confidently say that I never receive them while driving my Minsk.

Things I do receive: smiles (from middle-aged men who probably drove Minsks in their hometowns before moving to Hanoi), snickers (from the ubiquitous Honda SH trophy girlfriends), admiration (from every single under-25 parking attendant in the city, some of whom ask to take it for a ride, some of whom don't bother asking, as the bike doesn't require a key), and apathy (from the rest of Hanoi).

I'm devastated to admit this, but it seems that I'm just not as important as this thread had led me to believe before purchasing my Minsk; Most people just don't care. Allow me to submit for consideration that the people who hate Minsks aren't the Hanoians at all, rather they're the New Hanoians.

Well put, Nick. Beige indeed. Good job of bringing together 2 threads that otherwise appear to be binary opposites!

I notice that the emphasis here is on expats who ride Minsks. Am I the only one who has noticed more local people riding them lately? So does that somehow make it more acceptable now?

"Allow me to submit for consideration that the people who hate Minsks aren't the Hanoians at all, rather they're the New Hanoians."

If you say so. It doesn't much matter one way or the other.

"Am I the only one who has noticed more local people riding them lately? So does that somehow make it more acceptable now? "

Anyone who says it's unacceptable to ride a Minsk is a pillock. Big difference between my anti-Minskness and those decrying SUVs on the Hummer thread. All I'm doing is shaking my head in disbelief that anyone would desire to own a Minsk, let alone ride the torturous beast around the city. I'm not trying to *stop* anyone riding those terrible motorbikes. If they want to, go ahead. Local or foreigner.

Come to think of it, I feel exactly the same way about SUVs in Hanoi.

A non-Minsk answer I'm afraid, but Babyface's comment made me think about it.

Anyone noticed the increased amount of loud, expensive, big motorbikes? The big Suzuki's, Yamaha's etc with large engines. I'm talking Vietnamese men with their girls on the back who are so high up they look like they're about to fall off.

They always try to avoid police too, with good reason I'm sure.