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I'm setting up this question so that we have a more effective venue for discussing some of the concerns "jimbo" has recently raised about how we've dealt with certain business' posting tendencies. Jimbo's concern is primarily with Stones 1, but the issue applies to many more in the course of our normal operations. Please post your questions and comments here rather than on business pages. I'll do my best to make our approach clear.
You can see the posts from jimbo that got this started here:
http://newhanoian.xemzi.com/venue/show/1984/Stones-1
http://newhanoian.xemzi.com/event/show/705
posting policy (add tags) Why? Details of tags
answered about 6 months ago by jestert79
I don't see the point in getting puritanical about businesses posting "fake" reviews. Whenever you read about a place you can usually spot them a mile away, so you can just ignore them, or if you're really fussed, mark it "Utter Rubbish." As it was explained in the initial discussion, it was explained to Stones that they shouldn't post fake reviews and they said "Oh crap, delete it then!" If a business persists in repeatedly posting fake reviews, then that's another matter. What matters is the venue itself. In the end it seems it wasn't necessary to make a fake review because it turned out to be a cool place - I've seen two very positive reviews from friends and colleagues.
answered about 6 months ago by alpha
Thanks for your thoughts jestert79. I'll post our position on this matter for those who did not read the initial exchange bewteen jimbo and I. I'll have to post it in two parts (there's a character limit for the length of Ask A.N.H. posts). My apologies for the length, but I want to make sure it's all clear. We do not feel that Stones 1 has been rewarded for dishonesty. They have been allowed to participate in the TNH community through things like prize sponsorship and the hosting of meet ups because they have been nothing but open and responsible since the first time I sat down with the owner Hany and discussed the policies and expectations of this site. You are correct that he posted a review with his initial entry of Stones 1 into the site. He also answered an Ask A.N.H. post with an inclusion of his bar's contact information. That post was removed as soon as it was brought to my attention. The review was removed following my discussion with him. I waited until that time to remove it because I wanted to use it to show him how it was likely to be viewed by the TNH community and so I could explain his options. His options were two: 1) edit the review so that it included full disclosure of his identity and his relationship to the business, or 2) remove the review. Business owners ARE allowed to post a single review to their own business provided that they fully disclose who they are and how they are related to the business. This policy can be found in the Business Owner's FAQ in the footer of this page. I told him, however, that even this can set a less than stellar tone for those considering his new business. My advice was not to do this, but rather to encourage his regular customers to visit his page and leave their thoughts there. He asked me to remove the review, and I did. In the period following that time, he showed no signs of improper use. He contacted me directly concerning any information he wished to have posted, and inquired as to how he could use the site to get the word out about his business. We allowed him to sponsor a prize, which he did with full compliance while honoring all the expectations that come with that. My interactions with him led me to believe that he would be an appropriate host of a meet up. He did not let us down. That is this particular business' history with us. As for the general policy we have of talking to and discussing site policy with businesses who initially violate one or several of our policies, it is a matter of both practicality and principle. From a practical perspective, we are in contact with hundreds of businesses around Hanoi. These days, most come to know the site without our introducing them to it. Having used the business entry interface to add their listing, they see the review space as the most ready place to add a bit more about their business. It is a natural inclination, but one we take time to explain will ultimately be counterproductive. That you have chosen this single instance to crusade against, jimbo, I will take as a compliment. The fact is that this, or something very much like it, happens several times a week. The pattern is almost always the same. A business discovers the site. Business enters themselves and tries to post something about themselves in a place not really suited to it. I contact the business to set up a time to meet with them so that we can discuss the best ways to use the site. Business then becomes a respectful and contributing member of this site. If you think that this is in someway a remarkable case of abuse or unusual site activity, then, again, thank you. It takes a lot of work to monitor our community's activity and to turn uninformed interest on the part of businesses into responsible, policy conforming contributions. Some businesses make it easy, some don't. Stones 1 has been an easy one. (continued below)
(continued from above) There is also a fundamental element of principle involved. Hanoi is undergoing rapid change. The small business practices which have been deemed strategic up to this point have quickly been rendered a liability. Those establishments who continue to view their customer base as made up of adversaries who must be out-witted and deceived are hurting both themselves and Hanoi as a whole. We do not want to see this continue. In the 5000+ hours I've spent on this site over the last three years, it's become clear that the best way to achieve that is not simply through condemning those offenders who attempt to apply their old habits to this new medium. The more effective approach has been to try to bring them into the fold by demonstrating the consequences of their actions and how things might be done differently. Were we to just get steamed and engage in blacklist-like behavior, it would only perpetuate the idea that the foreign community in Hanoi is an antagonist to be milked when possible and never identified with. Whether they know it or not initially, their businesses are reliant upon healthy relationships with the very community that they have so often kept themselves distant from. We'd like to have a part in seeing that change. We feel that providing incentives and disincentives for relevant behavior is the way to go, and that the "death sentence" mentality achieves little. On the user side, this same approach is often applied. The posts by Steve and jimbo on the Stones 1 page are an example. I've been in touch with both of them hoping to see those posts get back to reflecting the experiences they've had with Stones 1. I'll leave the posts up for a bit in case anyone wants to know how this discussion turns out, but ultimately all will be coming down. Unless we want the site to degenerate into a bunch of hearsay and off topic discussions, we need to stick to reviewing what we experience. That said, I hope that its clear that I don't in any way mean to suggest that all members need to or should feel compelled to think any particular way about Stones 1. If you do not trust them or feel that they are not a business you wish to try, then that is your choice. We accept that, but it also needs to be understood that in explicitly choosing not to visit their business, you've also precluded yourself from having an informed opinion on their operations. This is the reason the posts from Steve and jimbo will be coming down off the Stones 1 page (unless they are edited to reflect their personal experiences there). I'll leave them up until this discussion is concluded so that no one is given the impression that we are trying to coddle Stones 1 or deflect this attention from them. I also continue to extend an invitation to meet in person with jimbo (or anyone else who has concerns about this). I know that even private messaging or email does not always fully convey one's opinion effectively. What comes across as a confrontational affair online can easily be translated into a friendly conversation between mutually concerned individuals. If anyone wants to talk about this over a beer or coffee sometime, please let me know.
answered about 6 months ago by Snellopy
I reckon that the New Hanoian's system works great guns, because of the dedication the admins put in. I love this site, and check for new reviews at least every hour if I'm at my computer (I have a short attention span, and I am easily amused). I read all the FAQ pages just for something to do ages ago, but obviously that's not for everyone - and I am sure if a small place with Vietnamese owners who don't speak great English come to the site, they aren't going to wade through all that. They may not even know what a FAQ is. I once saw one listing for a place that was done by the owner - to the normal user, you wouldn't have known - but I'd just followed up a job interview (posted on the pages here, naturally) and the reviewer was the same person I'd sent my CV to. I palmed it off to the admins with a quick note and they spoke quietly to her, she hadn't known it wasn't the done thing, blowing your own trumpet. I reckon they do a fantastic job, and dealt with Stones in the most appropriate way. Stones had unwittingly screwed up, and so were trying to make it up the best way they could - by giving a huge prize for 15 people (deservedly won by Brenaj) and then the monthly meet-up. What better way to say "We're sorry" than with free booze? It also gave us the chance to check the place out, and some people have already reviewed it. When I go again, I'll review it too - as I prefer to go at least twice to a place before I give them their review, to make sure I'm giving it a fair one. The guys running the New Hanoian are doing a fantastic job. I’ve had job interviews from their pages, helped mates find flatmates, and found some excellent bars and restaurants on their pages. I love writing reviews, and enjoy reading everyone else’s reviews. Plus, once a month, New Hanoian picks up my bar tab. What’s not to like? The only thing that would make it perfect would be if I got a free puppy every time I reloaded the home page.
answered about 6 months ago by jimbo
Well, I guess this is just going to turn into a cheerleading session for the New Hanoian. However, my complaint was about a business owner lying, several times in several different posts, and subsequently being rewarded with massive free publicity (his being forgiven for offering free booze is a joke, right?). Prior to the announcement of the big NH meet-up at Stones, it was never explained that the owner had been confronted about his deceit, and that he had agreed to comply with standards of honesty thereafter. So I complained. To hear all this talk of reconciliation after the fact is nice, but it is unfair to criticize my initial complaints since I had no way of knowing that this guy had been confronted. I felt that his original posts were deeply offensive in their dishonesty, and the next thing I saw was the advert for the big NH meet-up. So I questioned what was going on. Do I not have that right? Isn't it ultimately a good thing that someone questioned this?
It certainly reflects well on the New Hanoian that my comments weren't deleted, so thanks for that!
